This is the second part of my conversation with Dr. Ashley de Luna. In part 1, Dr. de Luna shared from her own experience with depression and detailed how she discovered neurology and naturopathic medicine. In part 2, Ashley gives a few practical tips on caring for the wellbeing of mind, body and spirit. We talk about what craniosacral therapy is and who it’s good for. Ashley shares on why the vagus nerve is her favorite nerve in the body and why doing things like singing loudly is actually very good for this nerve. We also talk about digestion and it’s large role in mental health, among other topics. Here’s part 2 of my conversation with Dr. Ashley de Luna.
Eric:
What in your view is the importance of this alignment? Why should someone care that their mind, their body and their spirit are working together?
Ashley:
It’s so important that our mind, our body and our spirits are working together because truly they are all one. We can’t be separated. And when there is a disconnect between one of those elements, we don’t feel comfortable and we don’t feel authentic and like we are living fully. And just on a scientific level, everything that we think in our mind, every single thing that we think triggers a chemical reaction in the body that then secretes chemical messengers into the blood that tells every cell in your body what you’re feeling. So if our mind is thinking something, our body is going to feel those effects and vice versa. If our body is having a very strong sensation that’s communicated back up to the brain. The spirit is similar to the mind but it’s of course more encompassing. And if we don’t feel in alignment with our spirit, with our soul, with our purpose, nothing will really click and come into alignment.
Eric:
So you would define mind as your thoughts and your spirit as your intention… your desires. What would this be?
Ashley:
No one’s ever asked me to define spirit. How would I define spirit? But it’s, it’s outside of the physical. It’s outside of the mental it… I like to think of it as your higher self. The part of you that that is without a body that is without limits. It’s a hard thing. But anyone who has a religious background or a spiritual practice, and for me, my spiritual practice is yoga and meditation. You, you connect with your spirit and it’s the part of you… that loving part of you that is without body, without mind, but just is in that – just knows higher self. You cannot separate your thoughts from the reactions that happen downstream and your body hears and hears it all.
Eric:
What kind of things – what are some of the check oil – check engine signs?
Ashley:
I think that the body is the easiest, right? We can actually feel when something’s off. So of course if something feels off, if you have that deep knowing that something is off in your body, if something is not working the way it should. Of course red flag mind can be things… any thoughts that are taking away from your ability to live a fulfilling life. That could be depressive thoughts. “Why am I here?” It could be anxious thoughts where you feel like you’re rushing through the day, not even to take a full breath. It could be obsessive compulsive thoughts. It could be any range, just anything where you are no longer in the present moment, experiencing life as a human being should be. Um, and that’s individual to each person. And as far as spirit goes, I think that that really comes in when you’re trying to find your purpose and your reason for what you do. That drive, but also that contentment and that feeling of love, like that deep sense of love though for life and for showing up and for your path. And that’s where most of the work I think comes in because we have to… there’s no clear way to get from A to B. There’s no clear way to kind of align your spirit. But the more that you sit in stillness and the more that you let yourself explore that arena, the more that you’ll feel more connected to the spirit. And you’ll know when things feel off. But anyone who just feels disconnected from life in the sense that they don’t understand why they’re here and where they’re going, connecting with spirit will help guide them.
Eric:
That’s awesome. Craniosacral therapy is something that you practice. What is that, first?
Ashley:
I love cranio sacred therapy. So the talk of craniosacral therapy will take us in the nervous system, but we’re going to look at the fascia. So fascia is connective tissue that is in all of our bodies and it starts by wrapping around the brain and the spinal cord.
Eric:
Is this the fats?
Ashley:
It’s not. No. Um, it’s, it’s similar to like, it looks like a spider web under a microscope. If you’ve ever peeled back skin on meat and prepared it and that little white, fleshy, stringy connective stuff, that’s all fascia and that starts by wrapping around our brain and our spinal cord, but it elongates and spreads out to hold every single thing in our body. It holds all of our muscles, all of our nerves, all of our structure to create this one elongated, continuous net from the head to the toes and because it holds the brain and the spinal cord… when the brain creates cerebrospinal fluid, which is the fluid that holds the brain and supports it in space, when it creates this fluid, it creates a wave. That wave kind of trickles out as if you were throwing a pebble in a pond. You can watch that wave travel out through all of the fascia, all of the arms that are reaching out from the nervous system. There’s a certain way that everything should move according to that wave, but there are also places where it might get stuck or feel a little sticky. Craniosacral is feeling where that movement is not happening. Encouraging it to happen. And what that does, it helps increase brain function because everything is wound together, but also releases these deep ways in which we hold ourselves that we don’t even know. It could be physical, it could be emotional, it could be mental. Working with the body in this way naturally stimulates the other side of the autonomic nervous system, the parasympathetic nervous system. It’s when we are in the parasympathetic state that the body can kind of shift it to resources from doing and acting into a space where it can heal and restore the body. So it’s extremely relaxing. It’s so calming for anxiety in any kind of nervous buzzing. But because you’re working directly on the head, you can access different parts of the brain and you can release tension, but you can also stimulate different connections in the brain.
Eric:
Hmm. That’s cool. That’s so cool. So you mentioned that things get stuck. How does, how does something get stuck?
Ashley:
So when we have an emotion, because everything that we think influences our physical body. When we have an emotion that tells us mentally that we need to react in some way. Emotions are kind of energy in motion and our bodies want to meet that input with an output. They want to have a motor movement output, whether that be moving towards a goal, whether that means screaming cause you’re mad. Whatever it is the body wants to release in some way. When we experience something in life and if we don’t let that release to happen, the energy is still within us. It has been shown that some of it gets stuck in this connective tissue web since it does hold our entire structure and it has emotional memory within it. There’s actually nerves that weave within this fascia network so that we know what’s going on within it. So for instance, if I feel sad or threatened, I’m sure we’ve all experienced this, the chest kind of collapses and the shoulders roll forward and we were kind of sunken into that sadness. Over time, my fascia will just hold me here. My connective tissue will just like to fall into this place because it feels easy. And then once I know, right, and then once I start to work into that part of the body, oftentimes what comes up was the original reason for why we pulled ourself there. It could be an emotion, it could be something physical. I mean this could all be a physical injury. Why I hold myself a certain way, but it starts to release whatever that pattern was upholding.
Eric:
So your brain is creating an association with that position that’s tied to some sort of emotion or memory?
Ashley:
Absolutely. And our body is always telling us how we feel. This goes both ways to the way that we hold ourselves. We often reflect the way that another person is holding themselves as a means to kind of commute, communicate, and connect with them non-verbally. So when we do that, our body has a map, our brain has a map of our body, and when we hold ourselves in a certain way, it tells our brain how we’re feeling. So it works in both directions.
Eric:
So cranial psychotherapy addresses this. What does a craniosacral therapy session entail?
Ashley:
Yes. So a craniosacral session entails – usually in the beginning we just talk a little bit about what brought you in. Of course, um, any concerns that you have, you go over the process, but for the most part it’s an hour of just receiving. You would lay down, you would pretend that you were sleeping and the craniosacral therapist would start to just feel these different waves of the nervous system. As a therapist, you typically don’t know where you’re going to be led until you put your hands on the patient’s body. And it’s a very intuitive process. It’s kind of where physical medicine and energetic medicine meet, but it’s very light touch. So a lot of people I think go into it thinking that’s going to feel like a massage, but it’s not. It’s very light touch and it just feels like gentle rocking motions and what the patient might experience are things like heat, a buzzing sensation, feeling like you’re releasing energy from cells, feel the need to release the emotion. I’ve definitely had both personally and through working with clients, huge emotional releases on the table. Um, it could lead to feeling like you need to take some deep breaths and kind of release it with an open mouth exhale, but it’s an hour or less of just receiving.
Eric:
Hmm. And you’re just working on the neck up?
Ashley:
So most of the work, based on the name cranial, there’s 22 bones in the head. So a lot of work in the head. Sacral. So the sacrum, the base of the spine and between the head and the sacrum is the entire spinal cord. That highway of energy that communication can travel through, but also it can pull you to anywhere in the body, anywhere, anywhere. And there’s fascia everywhere. So yeah, you can pull you anywhere.
Eric:
What would be a good intention? Like why would someone decide they want to go do craniosacral therapy? Could they do it because they have a specific thing that they want to get over or just because they feel bad or just because they want to maintain their good feeling? What, what is a good achievable goal for doing craniosacral therapy?
Ashley:
Great question. So craniosacral therapy just in its nature. It is so nourishing and balancing to the nervous system. So really anyone who has any type of just nervous system imbalance. It could be something as simple as we’re talking about like an emotional matter like depression, anxiety, worrisome thoughts, obsessive thoughts. I see a lot of patients with ADD and autism as well to stimulate the brain in that way and to stimulate connectivity in the brain. It’s incredible for digestive concerns, which we’ll have to eventually talk about digestion in the brain because those go hand in hand. So it’s beautiful for anything digestive related. It’s wonderful for any physical pain because that can get caught up in the fascia and all the connective tissues that are holding the body. Um, wonderful for sinuses because all of those bones in the face, you know, release and increase the flow through the sinuses. Physical ailments. Yes, all sorts of ailments. It’s so funny when people are like, what can I do craniosacral for? I’m like, I haven’t found something that it’s not helpful for because in recalibrating the nervous system and balancing the gut and releasing physical tension, so many different shifts can take place within the body. So it’s for whether there’s something actively going on or as well as if you just want something to kind of maintain the balance of the nervous system.
Eric:
Cool. So it’s good for anybody.
Ashley:
It’s good for anybody, anybody and everybody.
Eric:
And would you consider that a mind nourishment?
Ashley:
I would absolutely.
Eric:
What are some other, um, I want to go deep into the digestive part for the body, but what are some other examples of, you know, a mind nourishment that someone could, could undertake?
Ashley:
Mind nourishment…
Eric:
You mentioned meditation or was that just for spirit?
Ashley:
Some of these are going to have overlap. You know… I think mind nourishment absolutely is things like focusing the mind like you would in meditation. But I think that for a lot of people, meditation seems intimidating because they feel like they need to sit down in a peaceful room and sit up straight and just do nothing. But anything can be a meditation. Anything that you are so focused on. A lot of artists, they’re meditating while they’re doing their work. Walking can be a meditation, just being so present to the air on your skin, to the nature around you, to how – the sounds to everything. So mindfulness practices are incredible nourishment for the brain in whatever way it feels natural and organic for you. For me it’s yoga and breath work and meditation.
Eric:
So it’s almost – it could be a hobby.
Ashley:
It could be a hobby, it could be a hobby. Absolutely. You know when you get into that state that like flow state where time completely leaves and you were just in it, you are so focused. That is mindfulness.
Eric:
Cool. So I think that’s wrapped up mind. Let’s go on to body. I think it’s interesting to, and you seem excited to talk about the importance of digestion in the brain. Why is what, what role does digestion play in the way that I think?
Ashley:
Awesome. So fun fact about me, my favorite nerve in the body is the vagus nerve. And I’ll explain why. So the vagus nerve is this nerve that starts in the brainstem and it elongates down. It innervates the salivary glands, things in the mouth, it goes down the throat, innervating the voice box. It goes to the lungs, it goes to the heart, it goes to the belly and to all the digestive organs up to part of the colon, which then the sacrum takes over. But the reason why I’m bringing up this nerve is because it’s a literal connection between our gut and our brain. They are intimately connected, so things that are going on in the gut, are being communicated and the brain and things that are happening in the brain are being communicated in the gut via this gigantic nerve.
Eric:
Which part of the brain isn’t connected to?
Ashley:
It’s in the brainstem. So it’s in that primitive brain. And then it connects to all of the digestive system for the most part. And because of this, anything that’s going on in the gut will influence the way that the brain functions. For instance, if you get a really bad bout of food poisoning, your gut will become incredibly inflamed. Um, the infection in your gut will secrete different chemical messengers, different byproducts of the infection, and those inflammatory markers can first of all enter the blood, which will circulate and go everywhere. The brain being one of them, but they can also crawl up the vagus nerve and directly get into the brain. So inflammation in the gut is directly related to inflammation in the brain. And there’s actually been studies where – I’m sure they did this in mice because most of these things they won’t do to humans – they injected mice with an infection that then lead to systemic inflammation. And this inflammation was a predictor of depression. How much systemic inflammation that they had, whether it be triggered by the gut or just a systemic infection, predicted the severity and frequency of depressive episodes.
Eric:
Wow. What is inflammation doing that it’s causing depression? Is it inhibiting the way the brain works in some way?
Ashley:
So inflammation basically is just a chemical storm. We secrete what’s called interleukins, which are the way that the immune system communicates with the body and the immune cells secrete all these interleukins, chemical messengers, and they circulate. And when they circulate to the brain, it just inhibits functioning there. It shifts normal functioning of creating neurotransmitters and making happy neuro connections into, “Oh crap, we have to survive because there is some threat in the body.” So your resources shift and you can’t do the normal neurological functions. You can of course. I mean we’re surviving, but we’re not thriving when we’re inflamed.
Eric:
Right. You’re on a very physiological level – your body is not helping you. Working against you almost. What things should someone do to facilitate a happy vagus nerve?
Ashley:
Yay. I love this question. So there are a lot of things that you can do to facilitate a happy vagus nerve and this will directly heal the gut just based on the connections that we have. Of course, we need to make sure that we’re doing things that won’t continue the inflammation, like eating good food. And by good food I mean organic food that’s not sprayed in chemicals. Non-processed food that our body recognizes as real food. Chewing so that our body can happily digest and absorb the food. Yes, we don’t chew our food appropriately. We swallow big pieces of food, big compounds that need to be broken down by digestive enzymes. And the more that we chew, the smaller that we break down those pieces so that the digestive enzymes can digest and absorb much more efficiently.
Eric:
It’s common sense.
Ashley:
I know I, but we forget it. So assuming that you set everything up for success in your gut, you’re doing all the right things, your belly is happy, how do you get the vagus nerve to be turned on active and doing what it needs to do? You think about the things that the vagus nerve touches first, well not the first, but one of the main ones is the throat. So doing things like chanting, humming, singing – incredible for digestion, incredible for the brain. So incredibly calming. So I encourage everyone listening to this to sing as loud as you possibly can in the shower or in the car. For those of you that practice yoga, um, ujjayi breathing, that oceanic breath because you’re contracting the muscles in your throat. It sounds like this – [deep breaths] – that stimulates the vagus nerve. Similar in the throat, things like gargling, really good to gargle. Um, when you’re brushing your teeth or just throughout the day, if you want to gargle. This one, some people laugh at, but it is very true. One of the best ways to stimulate your vagus nerve is gagging. So when you’re brushing your teeth, if you just want to inch your toothbrush back there until you gag, you’ll notice that you salivate. And what that shows you is because the vagus nerve innervates your salivary glands and all of your digestive organs that you have fired that nerve. It is working. It’s kind of started the pathway of digestion already.
Eric:
What does “it’s working” mean?
Ashley:
It means that it is firing and it is telling all the organs that it touches to start doing its work. So the vagus nerve is a huge part of the parasympathetic nervous system, the rest and digest. So it’s telling the body to shift and tweak healing space and it’s also telling all your digestive organs that there is food, emotions, whatever it is that needs to be digested. And now is the time to do it.
Eric:
Basically tricking your nervous system into chilling out.
Ashley:
Yes, exactly.
Eric:
What kind of foods are, what specifically… what is bad for the vagus nerve and for healthy digestion?
Ashley:
So in a broad sense, anything that’s not good for digestion won’t be good for the entire body or the nervous system. So things like heavily processed foods, anything that comes in a package, um, is not the best for our bodies. There’s a lot of chemicals that are unforeseen that come in the chemical packaging that our body has to process. Similarly or… we want to eat only organic vegetables. Kind of the saying eat more veggies as an overarching theme is no longer true because our veggies are heavily, heavily, heavily sprayed in neurotoxins. Literally neurotoxins. Pesticides were created to attack the nervous system of pests, but we have very similar nervous systems. Our neurons react in the same exact way and it will attack our nervous system as well. So organic food is key. Eating foods that have good fibers in them, like fruits and vegetables, because that will help to stimulate the good bacteria in your gut to secrete all the good things that they do. The bacteria in our gut make something called short chain fatty acids, which are incredibly healing to the body, incredibly anti-inflammatory, and that will help to nourish the nervous system as well. And as far as kind of animal products go, that’s unique to each person. Some people don’t do well with dairy at all. Other people do. I would just say kind of as an overarching theme, eating the most natural possible foods that come from the earth and that haven’t been sprayed in chemicals. For me, that means choosing meats that are raised sustainably, that eat mainly grass, and making sure that the grass isn’t sprayed with pesticides, that they’re not pumped up with hormones. Just giving our digestive system foods that they’re, that they evolved eating because they know how to deal with them. Foods that we eat that the body hasn’t evolved eating and that doesn’t recognize them, triggers inflammation. It triggers the immune system to perceive that there’s a threat in the body when really that threat is food.
Eric:
Wow. So that’s an interesting way of looking at it. Whenever you’re not eating healthy, you are telling your body, your nervous system that there’s a threat. That’s, that definitely makes me look at it a little differently.
Ashley:
Yes, yes, yes. Food is one of the most powerful influences on mood. Not only that we have the building blocks like the fats and the proteins, um, to build the neurotransmitters and the structure and the nervous system, but also all the things that are not natural that we consume.
Eric:
Where do carbs fall on that? And grains.
Ashley:
So, interesting that you brought this up. So carbs, of course. I mean, we use carbs. They’re a very easy way to create energy in the body. We need them to produce structure as well. However, the standard American diet is very, very, very, very, very heavy in carbs. So for the most part, most of us don’t need to eat half of the amount of garbage that we’re eating. It’s just quick, easy energy. But the brain actually functions more on using fat as energy. It likes that sustained source. It will suck up all your blood sugar just to go to the brain because it uses so much energy. So fat is a much more stable energy source for the brain. Um, I think the days of being scared of fat are over, which is great because we need fat and our brain loves fat. As far as grains go and their ability for digestion and their impact on the nervous system. A lot of people just don’t digest grains well and it becomes kind of just a trigger for them. And when we don’t digest things well, something in our body – and it’s usually the bacteria in our gut will digest it for us instead of us digesting and absorbing it.
Eric:
So it’s not even going to you?
Ashley:
It can. It definitely can. But if you have an issue digesting the food or if your body doesn’t like grains, then really you’re just feeding the bacteria in your gut. Um, and they like food. But that’s more so coming up for people who when they eat like rice or certain grains, they get really gassy and bloated. That’s a sign that the bacteria in your gut are fermenting the food for you and that you are not digesting it. I’ll just speak briefly on wheat because we’re on grains and that’s a big thing right now. Wheat as we know it in the United States of America has been so genetically modified to the point that it doesn’t look like the original food protein that it was. So our bodies don’t recognize wheat at all. It is perceived as a threat and as a foreign invader because it looks so different. And there’s something in science called molecular mimicry where if proteins have a certain amino acid structure, if they have the same building blocks as another tissue in your body, if the immune system perceives the food as a threat, it will perceive those tissues in your body as a threat. With gluten – this is something that was really powerful for my healing journey. When I eat gluten or if I accidentally ingest gluten, my depression skyrockets. My anxiety skyrockets because it actually triggers my body to start attacking my cerebellum, which is the little baby brain that lives below your cerebral cortex. And there’s a lot of studies that have come out recently showing that this part of the brain is important for appropriate emotions and coordinating emotions. So for me, when I eat wheat, which has the same chemical structure as my cerebellum, my immune system goes, “Oh boy, we have to attack my brain.” And I’m a mess for a couple of days for sure, until that inflammation goes down.
Eric:
So that’s digestion.
Ashley:
That’s digestion. And in America we eat on the go, we eat while watching TV. We eat while completely distracted. So our digestive system isn’t in the most optimal place to begin with. So one of the most powerful things that you could do for your mental health is eating mindfully. Another way to bring mindfulness in, bringing it into your food when you’re cooking. Really be with the food, smell the food, tastes, the food. Of course you can share a meal with loved ones. That’s part of it. But just really focusing on the action that you’re doing, which is eating.
Eric:
What kind of things are you doing when you’re eating out to make sure that the meals you have when you’re out, um, don’t destroy your vagus nerve?
Ashley:
So I am, I’m pretty picky to be honest. Like food for me is medicine, so I only eat food that is medicine. So I only eat at a very select few places where I know that their quality of food is very high, where I know that I won’t get a cross contamination with wheat. Um, and as far as the mindfulness piece goes in, it’s definitely more difficult when you’re out and about at a restaurant. You’re not preparing the food so you’re not having kind of the, the stimulation of the digestive system before you even sit down and eat. Because a lot of our digestion actually starts when we’re thinking about food, when we’re getting the different ingredients together, when we’re cutting them up, when we’re seasoning them, when we’re cooking, when we smell it all happening – that stimulates digestion to already start. So when we eat out, we miss a part of that. So it takes even more awareness around what you’re doing while you’re doing it and when you’re eating and trying to be really present with the food and not getting distracted by all the other things in the surroundings. But I think the most powerful thing that I do when I eat out as chew, I eat so slow and I chew so many times. My husband gets so mad at me, but I’m just chewing nice and slow.
Eric:
Interesting. I definitely immediately think of this past weekend I was in Vegas with a friend and the food there is not very good, but we’re also in Vegas wanting to go, go, go. So I was eating very fast. Yeah, probably not the best weekend for my brain.
Ashley:
Vegas is a hard one for the brand.
Eric:
It’s a hard one for the brain. Vegas is hard on the vagus.
Ashley:
Ah, that’s, yes. Yes, it really is.
Eric:
Um, let’s move on to spirit then. This one is probably a little more difficult.
Ashley:
Probably, yes.
Eric:
So meditation was something that we talked about that could be beneficial to spirit. Yoga. So you said there’s going to be cross contamination here. Are mind and spirits kind of closely intertwined in what you do for one is kind of doing for the other as well?
Ashley:
In a sense. But our mind is something that I think we can more easily identify with. But spirit is almost outside of ourselves and there’s a lot of different ways that spirit can kind of show up in a person’s life. Like for my husband, he connects with his spirit when he’s surfing and when he’s just in that flow state out in the ocean and when he feels connected to nature and kind of the flows of the universe. So I think it’s just whatever kind of taps you into that flow. For some people it’s dancing for some people that just being with family or being with their pet and just feeling that something outside of themselves. For some people it’s religion or study. It’s really endless the ways that you can connect with spirit, but it’s, it takes practice, it takes practice and it takes reaching your hand out and inviting that to come in. But those of you that have experienced it, of course you’re like, yeah, I know what you’re talking about. And those that haven’t, just be open to inviting that in because it will come. You just have to find out the ways that it wants to show up for you.
Eric:
So someone who’s listening and is interested in meeting you and working with you. You’re in San Diego. What kind of services do you offer outside of craniosacral therapy?
Ashley:
Yes. So as a naturopathic medical doctor, I do primary care. I love preventative medicine. My specialties are of course in mental health. I love working with people with anxiety, depression, OCD, autism, ADHD, anything. I love gut health. I love women’s health and I love autoimmunity and just kind of overall health. So really you could come to see me for anything that you would see your primary care physician for or a functional medicine practitioner for. We do a lot of in depth intake, physical exam, and then specialty tests that kind of look at functional markers to get a really good look as to what’s going on in your physiology that might not be apparent based on kind of routine labs. As far as services, a lot of craniosacral therapy. I also do something called visceral manipulation, which works a little bit deeper than craniosacral, specifically on the gut. Um, but a lot of nutrition and lifestyle medicine.
Eric:
Is visceral therapy a hands on therapy? Just like craniosacral?
Ashley:
Yes, it’s hands on and it’s also working in the connective tissue, but it’s working on the organs directly themselves.
Eric:
Cool. And you just opened up your own practice?
Ashley:
I did. I just opened up my own practice. Thank you so much. I’m located in Ocean Beach, San Diego, a precious little beach town in Southern San Diego.
Eric:
Cool. And you’re seeing new patients?
Ashley:
I am seeing new patients.
Eric:
Cool. So I’ll make sure to include contact information for you. You’re still teaching yoga?
Ashley:
Yes, I am teaching yoga in San Diego. I teach it at two yoga studios: Indie Yoga and Reunify Yoga. They are both in Ocean Beach. As you can tell I really like it there.
Eric
Do you incorporate your medicine into your yoga practice?
Ashley:
I do. Usually before I start class, I’ve found that it really kind of helps everyone drop in and connect the energy of the room if I share something that’s either going on in my life or something that I learned through mindfulness or I talk a lot about the brain and neurology, a lot of the stuff that we talked about in this podcast I like to weave in so that people can start to facilitate that in their practice. So yeah, it’s a dance of the two always.